So tonight I’m sitting talking with two friends. I was talking about Kai and how he was my first born and I feel like I made a lot of mistakes with him.
My friend laughed, “Were you following that Train up a Child Book?”
I rolled my eyes and we laughed – yeah right!
The other friend didn’t know what the book was and so we explained how it teaches people to train their children like dogs and has lead to several deaths.
Oh yeah, she said, I saw a news piece on that.
We went into discussing the book and the news a little bit. We also talked about the Hillary Adams beating and how heart wrenching that was.
It’s sad, my friend said, because of that they’re probably going to make laws now that prohibit spanking and all the Christian people who spank will get their kids taken away. Christians won’t be allowed to spank their kids. It’s just so sad, people will have to hide to spank their own kids.
It’s illegal here in Costa Rica, you know, the other friend commented. When my husband and I spank our kids we always close all the windows to make sure the neighbors don’t see.
The discussion went further on with the two friends talking about how they spank their kids, where when and how, etc.
I was just sitting their feeling uncomfortable. This was nothing new to me. I’ve been in tons of conversations like this and I usually just sit there quietly saying nothing, waiting for the conversation to turn to a new subject.
Well, tonight I was sitting there and I thought of Dulce de Leche’s post about being a spanking abolitionist. I agree with every single word of that post, but I don’t have the courage she does to speak up about it. So as I was sitting there just getting more and more uncomfortable I finally spoke up.
“I don’t spank my kids.” I said.
Oh boy.
Looking back, I’m still not sure if I should have done that. The conversation took a major turn and got very intense. We ended up talking and debating for over two hours, late into the night. There was crying, there were hurt feelings, there was judgment passed on both sides, explanations on both sides, justifications. It was one of the most difficult conversations of my entire life and in the midst of it I almost lost one of my closest friends.
Finally at the end we reached a point where we had to agree to disagree. It was hard, though. Because I take such a strong stance against spanking, there is a level of judgment that comes along with it. But I still love my friend, even though she doesn’t agree with me and probably never will. So what does that mean for us?
We both cried and hugged and said how much we loved each other and we would always be friends no matter what.
And so there we stand.
So now I’m not sure what to think. Was it worth it to bring the subject up and stick myself out there? Or should I have just remained silent? I still don’t know. What would you have done?
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Well, they were happy in sharing that they hurt their children so I don’t see why you should kee quiet about not spanking. You were right to speak up.
Nev
Thanks Nev.
There are a lot of topics like this I just can’t discuss with friends because even if we hug and agree to disagree I feel like theres always that conversation around like an elephant in the room. A lot of people have said harsh, judgemental things around me in reference to things I disagree with and I have always avoided the confrontation. That being said, I think about their children and the things I disagree pretty strongly on and wish I had the courage to speak up, for the sake of their kids. I’m sure my friends would feel the same about my kids. All we can really do is make prayerful, informed decisions regarding our children, we all just want to do our best, right? I just pray that mothers take the time to research and pray over those choices as i have and continue to do.
I know what you mean, Lisa. I am a type of person who generally will avoid confrontation for this very reason!
I’ve stopped having qualms about telling others my opinions on spanking. I will fully admit that I spanked my first child and feel terrible about it. I will also explain that spanking was not something my children grew out of, but that I grew out of because I became a better parent. I realize now that spanking is reactive parenting rather than responsive parenting, and I wish I had known to be more of a responsive parent to my son.
Stay strong and true to your loving values! You never know whose mind you might enlighten!
That is so wonderful – that is the piece I left out – that I did spank my first and second son and feel terrible about it – it was a total mistake – I can see that so clearly now. I think that would have been important to share.
I love the encouragement to stay strong and true to our loving values and true to our selves. Thank you for that – it means a lot to me today!
That’s such a hard thing to know, when or if to bring that up. But as Nev said, they were sharing freely; there’s no reason you should have to sit in silence. It’s heartbreaking to listen to parents talking about it so casually, even while knowing at the same time that they are loving, well-intentioned parents just like we are. Praying for peace for you today.
*tears* Thank you for that, and thank you for your prayers.
Was it worth it?! YES! Good for you! I just was watching a show last night about “How Evil Are You?” where they take people in to volunteer for a research project in which they think they’re hurting someone…and when the test subjects were alone 77% of them completed the test even tho’ they were uncomfortable with it. But, that all changed when they added a 2nd person to the test who was “in on it” who after a certain time said, “I can’t do this anymore!” THEN…the test subjects had the courage to also step up and step out of the test. The research showed that when people are in an uncomfortable situation all it takes is one person to “stand up” for what they feel and they follow. SO…you said your friend will “never change their mind”…that may not be true…you may have been the strength they needed to begin to take notice to that uncomfortable feeling they have every time they do spank…
I say it was definitely worth it!
Dara, Thank you for that. That was really kind and encouraging. I’m going to work on taking that to heart. I really appreciate you taking the time to share with me today.
Why can’t we all just respect each other’s views? I too, find it difficult to express my true feelings/views/beliefs with many people who I KNOW disagree with me. Sadly, christians seem to be the worst offenders. I find, other people in general, are much more open to intelligent exchanges of ideas, without emotional heated arguements.
I think it gets especially heated between moms when we’re talking about our children. It is such a sensitive topic and as moms we can be so easily hurt or offended if we feel someone is judging us, our decisions, our parenting, our children, etc. It just hurts. Because it’s a hard job and the fact is that every mom is doing the very best she can with the information and support that she has. We’re trying our hardest and if someone from the outside points a finger in saying we’re not doing it right, it pushes moms to react very strongly. I too wish we could have more open discussions, but I feel when it comes to parenting, it’s really tough.
So you are happy to remain friends with child abusers? That says a lot more about you than them. Spanking is hitting which is abuse.
I was going to delete this comment, because I believe it is mean-spirited. But I’m going to leave it here to see if anyone else would like to respond. Though it is phrased in an unkind way, Katy-Anne does raise an interesting question. Can we remain friends with those whose views are drastically different from ours? What do you think?
I decided that I can and I will even though it is uncomfortable. Because I know my friend and I know her heart. She loves her children and has the very best intentions for them. She truly believes that what she is doing is good for them. I strongly disagree, but I’m still going to stay in the friendship. That’s the decision I made and I feel it was the right thing to do for me.
Were you uncomfortable because you rattled the cage or because your opinion was different? I think that we’ve been brought up being taught that “rattling the cage” is not a good thing, as if we are questioning authority. Even if you stayed silent, your opinion to the open discussion was still different. So, why should you have felt bad? The reactions of others is their own. You can’t control it. Judging others is definitely not a good thing and will affect one’s relationship with those they judge. A true friend forgives, loves, and tries to understand differences even if they disagree in the end.
I have told many people I don’t spank. I am always very clear that our largest behavior challenge with our kids when they are toddlers is them attempting to hurt other people and that it simply doesn’t even make logical sense to me that you stop hitting with hitting. All it would teach them is you can hit people you are bigger than. And by the time we had other issues, we already had other techniques that worked better.
I don’t support spanking, because I don’t see that it’s effective or a good idea. However, I really don’t understand why people would get upset that I don’t spank. How does it affect you that I don’t spank? It affects you even less than it affects me that you do spank.
I think the issue here was that I was making a stance that spanking is morally wrong. That it is actually a human rights issue. So once I take a strong position like that it immediately casts judgment on those who are spanking. Any time we take a strong position on any issue, it’s going to put those on the other side in a negative light. So we were trying to figure out how our friendship would work with this judgment hanging in the air between us. It was not a nice feeling for her to know that I felt so strongly what she was doing is wrong. And she also felt confused about how I was raising my children and having some judgment towards me as well. But in the midst of it we really do love and care for each other.
Katy-Anne’s comment really bothers me… in this context spanking was being discussed as a moral/human rights issue. To condemn Leslie and insinuate that she is in the wrong for continuing the friendship with someone on the opposite side of that issue is not right, or fair. If you were pro-life and had a close friend who was pro-choice, and you were both passionate about your stance would you discontinue a friendship over that? Maybe you would. I would love my friend, regardless of their stance. If it’s something we’re both passionate about we aren’t going to sway each other’s opinions with a debate, but loving your friend in spite of your different beliefs may have more of an impact. I think it speaks very highly of Leslie to put these differences aside and hold onto and value that friendship. It would be easy to cut someone out of relationship because they disagree with you. To agree to disagree, and love your friend through this speaks highly of a person’s character, in my mind.
Lisa, thank you so much for that! Wow, that was super encouraging. I’m kind of speechless. In a good way. Thanks!
I am another who would find it hard to keep quiet in that sort of situation. And let’s face it – there is nothing wrong or judgemental about saying you don’t spank your own children. If others choose to take offence at that, that is really their own doing.
I also think that, even if they continue to disagree with you in conversations, that privately they will have something to think about. That there is another way. That can only be a good thing! xx
That’s a good thought, Meryl! Thank you!
Leslie, you are right on the money when you mention parenting as being a tough issue to discuss with friends when you disagree. Nothing can rile up a Mama Bear more than having someone criticize her! So this post may be about a friend issue more than about whether spanking is right or wrong.
That said, I had never heard of the book, and did check out your links. Whoa. As someone who comes from a more traditional religious background, it bothers me when the Bible is taken so literally.
Leslie, if nothing else, you’ve given your friends some food for thought. Nothing wrong with that!
Exactly, Tonya! That is what it is – the Momma Bear comes out! Unfortunately that happened to me last night – I got very defensive when my friend brought up a situation with my son where she felt I didn’t handle it well. I didn’t react well. I’m not proud of that – but that’s exactly what I felt. Don’t even go there… roooar!
I think it turning into more of a post about navigating friendships when you disagree than a post about spanking per say.
I am so sorry to be the one to introduce you to this horrific book and parenting philosophy. It is very sickening and disturbing, especially as a Christian to see someone use the name of God in that way. So sad. But hopefully we can keep spreading a message of peace and showing another way.
Thanks for the encouragement, Tonya, it means a lot to me!
I think that telling the truth and expressing beliefs, values, opinions is always the right thing. Spanking is not the only hot parenting issue…there are so many. I think it’s important to see others point of views and especially with someone who share the same faith I do. I know that I disagree with others on some of these issues, but I’m still seeking to apply God’s truth to all areas of my life and that includes disciplining my children.
and, I have a question for Katy-Anne…what about other forms of abuse? I hate to admit this, but I’ve certainly lost my temper and yelled at my children. (No, I have never used foul language or called them names or anything). But some would argue that just yelling is verbal abuse. I understand your point, but I think the statement that her friend is a child abuser is an extremist statement. I know that all the parenting decision I made I try to make based on God’s commandments and always out of an intense love for my children. Have I made mistakes? Yes. Have I made the same ones more than once? Yes. Do I believe I am a child-abuser. NO!
Exactly, Em! I totally agree. I know my friend is not a child-abuser, not by a long shot. Her children are growing up in a very loving environment. And if she is I am as much of an abuser as she is! We all make mistakes. We all are trying our best. Thank God for His grace that covers our mistakes and for His great love for us and our children. Love covers a multitude of sins! Amen to that.
There are many topics that aren’t worth speaking up, knowing it’ll just cause a disagreement between friends… however, spanking isn’t one of them. This is a HUGE issue. It is important to you for a reason – and believing differently than your friends is hard, but it is so needed for your view to be heard. I think it is so interesting that it is usually the non-spankers that are most afraid to have this conversation. We believe so strongly that we are doing our best for our children – and we should try to share that with others (with compassion and as little judging as possible, of course!). Maybe this conversation didn’t change her mind… but it may have planted a seed that will turn into change somewhere down the road. You did the right thing… good for you!
Let me say how much I admire the fact that you did bring it up and stood up for being a non spanker. I know just how hard this is – having had a similar ‘conversation’ with my best friend recently. She lives in the USA and I live in Portugal. I brought it up in ‘general conversation’ – in IMing her. Ouch! “So you think I am a child abuser then do you ??” she said. *sigh* hard …
You see, I am a 57 yr old grandmother, who was spanked as a child. My parents lost me from the first time they hit me. They lost my love, respect and trust. I have never respected or trusted anyone who hits me – and never will.
I learned only fear, pain, anger, hate and resentment and that my parents didn’t love me. And no, that post spanking pep talk of ‘oh we love you’ meant nothing to me as they had just HIT me. It destroyed our relationship forever. It also left me with real problem – I have ALWAYS known that hitting is wrong – for adults, animals and especially for children. When I read about it .. and when I read about the Pearls utterly cruel, abusive and disgusting ways to ‘train’ a child – my pulse doubles, I feel vaguely sick … I still feel like a 5 yr old child in other words. To me there is NEVER a reason to hit a child. Hot stoves ? YOU buy and use a guard no matter how hard it is.
Going back to my friend and I. I told her she did what she knew was legal, she did what her parents had done to her, and she did it because she thought it was the ‘right thing to do’. That was when she told me that she STILL believes it. The upshot is … she no longer has young children so is not going to hitting any children. I can cope with that. I don’t LIKE what she believes, and it does make me angry. But because she isn’t currently hitting … I can live with it. I do think though, that if she DID somehow have a child again and spank aka hit it ….. I would have to stop the friendship petty as that sounds, and it would break my heart. I would hope to help her see how wrong it is, to show her the gentle ways to parent – but if she started hitting that child … I would have to protect myself, because weak though it sounds I really couldn’t take that emotionally. Not after being ‘merely’ spanked as a child – not beaten by the standards of the day. But tell me, how would I live with myself, if I stayed friends and she carried on spanking that child, or … if I left and she did ?? That is my greatest …. upset. That I might not ever be able to save that child.
May I ask you Leslie, how on earth do you face those children of your friends that spank ? I am not attacking you here seriously, I am just trying to understand how one can do that. I think I would be in floods of tears … every time I saw them.
Sorry I waffled … as you see .. spanking HAS and continues to affect me greatly ….
As aChristian mother it always distresses me to hear about things like this. And it frightens me that many people view spanking as a “Christian” practice. I could go on and on about that, however, that is not the main point. I have to say I am proud of you for standing up for yourself! I wouldn’t be able to do it. You are an amazing woman and I am so glad you were able to remain friends despite th difference in opinion. Who knows, maybe that conversation will spark a change within her and she will stop.
I think you wrote this post for me today. I, too was recently surrounded by friends who talked about spanking their kids. I didn’t have the courage or the strength to speak up. I sat quietly, feeling sick inside. Later, they read on my blog that I don’t spank. So, on top of getting over our differences of opinion, we now have to heal from the fact that I didn’t “say it to their faces.”
You were being your authentic self. I was not. I believe we are called to honesty and authenticity – even when it’s hard. And, that we can trust in the peace that flows from authenticity. A friendship with walls of dishonesty has no hope of survival. I applaud your speaking up and will borrow some of your strength the next time I’m in that situation. Thank you so much for this!
This is exactly what happened to me with my friend on fb. She must have not realized we don’t spank (anymore that is..long story there).
I pointed out articles on the Hebrew meaning of the rod, but she came back at me with “Hubby and I studied the scriptures more and we still believe God mandates us to spank! So disheartening and I feel like giving up. I’m not sure people like this will ever change.
I don’t see a date and don’t know how old this post is…but I’m gonna chime in anyway.
At church one morning my daughter was acting up. She was fed, dry, nothing wrong. She just wanted down from the pew and wanted to run around. She ended up throwing a fit. I tried to calm her down for a few min before the screaming started, but we ended up going into the “training” room. It’s a small room with a window and speakers so parents can take their kids there and still listen to and see the services. Another mom (the preacher’s wife) came in to give me support. She’s really nice and co sleeps and is still nursing her almost 2 year old son. I was shocked when she told me where the wooden spoon was kept if I ever needed it and that she used it on her son several times that morning.
My daughter is only 15 months old!!! But what did I say? Nothing. I just smiled and nodded during the chat. I did not speak out against hitting my baby (and her hitting hers).
Thank you for this post. Next time it comes up, I’ll speak against hitting our children. Even if that makes me the odd one out.
Oh my goodness, Kristi, what a shock that must have been! Even stranger with the nursing and co-sleeping, because that usually helps a mom be more in tune with her child. At 15 months old church can definitely be a challenge. I would say your daughter was not being naughty at all – only asserting her preferences and her healthy nature to explore, and do what a healthy 15 month old child should be doing. For me in these instances it’s learning how to be authentic – remain who we are – with grace – that means in love and with respect for the person. That’s the tricky balance in these types of conversations! Good luck!